However, I recently did a skirmish with some AI's and just closed my eyes and picked a random map... a Naval map. I thought about changing it right away but figured, what the hell, I'll give it a shot.
I started with a couple land factories and quickly started pumping out tanks to protect my base. After the 2nd fac was up I started building 2 naval factories. I noticed that these are much more expensive and the units are more expensive. I was however impressed by the naval unit's power and think it could be used in a good way in a battle.
My question is, what is the best Naval strategy.. It seems they are rather expensive to blitz for right away, is there any advantage in going strong naval from the get go? Or should I concentrate on land and eventually move to naval after maybe 7 or 8 minutes in?
(I mostly play UEF)|||UEF navy rocks. Get Mastadons early to rape enemy structures from far. Then tech to Poseidons for land bombardment. After that tech to gauss cannons and it's game over!
If the enemy ever goes naval... spam Tigersharks and you win the seas. Then repeat the above mentioned.
|||yeah. Play UEF, make subs, cant lose =(|||Naval is rarely rushed on small 1v1 maps simply because you'll be overruned by land before your first cruiser kills anything of value. Naval comes more into play in 2v2 and higher games. Generally, UEF navy trumps all on the water, simply because of their spammable subs, the best mobile radar and the most cost effective mobile AA on their cruisers and battleships that can rape monkeylords when upgraded.UEF navy plays a lot like UEF air: spam subs till you gain naval superiority, then switch over to shore bombardment with cruisers or tech to b-ships.
Though you could always play aeon and do away with navy all together.|||It all depends a bit on the map you play on. Small sized maps, like Finns Revenge, would require a land opening followed up by naval (2 land facs, then a naval yard), but on bigger maps/team games, like wedell isles or Setons Clutch, you generally go naval only. In these situations, where 1 player focuses on naval and his teammate on air, UEF always wins because they simply have better naval combat units cost-to-cost. Better air too, by the way.|||It isn't quite so cut and dry, though I'll admit UEF has the advantage there are ways to gain the upper hand.
Looking at Cybran their navy is actually really good for pulling off early raids thanks to their speed upgrade(rush a salem and hit every coastal mass extactor you find), taking that on weddell isles and handicapping the enemies mass is always a good start, also never go into straight fights unless you have almost even numbers as Salems 1on1 beat tiger sharks and Mastodons.
Naval factories just as land factories can be used as walls, if you position your naval yards so your fleet can move around behind them and then add shields and torpedo tubes, can add extra and usually unexpected punch for defensive situations.
Oh, upgrading kind of important, never get executioners, not even for fighting aeon, focus on training upgrades if you are forced to fight head on and go for range if you are able to keep the enemies navy in check. Talking of Aeon if I was fighting Aeon in a naval war I'd bring gunships. which is another thing if you are even going to fight a navy with air, use gunships.|||Nephylim|||Okay, I admittedly suck really hard at this game, so don't flame me if this is a stupid question, but...
...just how do you counter, say, UEF navy, as Cybran? I mean, almost any number of air units get raped by their gorram cruisers and I've heard Cybran's navy is bad. Can a cruiser-rush strategy be countered by anything other than navy?|||Kranen91|||Well that's unfortunate. I always was a Cybran fan.
Anyway, when I say I suck at this game, I mean really really suck. I haven't dared playing online much except for against my friends, who are on about the same level.
I guess I'll just try to improve on micro and the next time I encounter ships, I'll try to counter with navy.
Anyway, thanks for the reply!|||Mastodons are really irritatingly overpowered against Cybran. Illuminate can at least counter them with tanks, but Cybran have nothing, and if they catch a UEF player with no navy (a shameful UEF player, for sure), he's gonna be in trouble too.|||Mithy|||He means that mastodons are indirectly uncounterable, because of the presence of subs.|||Nephylim|||I also mean that Cybran navy is largely such a joke that I prefer to stay out of the water. Mass quantities of shields are a much better counter to Mastodons + Tigersharks than Cybran navy.
If TMD actually worked and was RP-affordable, that would help too. I took a look at the Adaptor TMD, and I don't really see where the problem could be coming from, except that its DPS is actually quite low - ~3, meaning that even if it hits every shot, it would take 1.5 to 2.5 seconds to kill one missile depending on what fired it (Illuminate are 6hp, UEF 4hp, Cybran 2-8hp). Multiply that time by the number of missiles per salvo, and that may be part (or even all) of the problem.|||"Missiles being shot down? Target something else. They can't stop them all!"
Yeah, this is pretty much the reason TMD will never be truly effective.|||That's not true; make each individual TMD unit effective enough, and you can simply spread them around in groups of 3-4.
FA's TMD was significantly more expensive per-unit, and took longer to build, but because it could kill most missiles with one hit, it was plenty effective. The fact that it takes an SC2 TMD unit up to three seconds to shoot down one missile is the sole reason why they're completely useless.|||Ultimately the best the defender can hope for is to take no damage. The attackers are still there firing and can be there indefinitely. If the defender makes a mistake with TMD, he loses a load of buildings, if the attacker makes a mistake, he just wastes some time.|||There are already a ton of mechanics in the game based around the idea of only countering damage, and not necessarily eliminating the source of the attacks. These counters are usually (and should be) cheaper than the offensive unit. The Mastadon+Tigershark is imbalanced vs Cybran and to a lesser extent Illuminate because its intended hard counter (TMD) is completely broken, and their soft counters are weak or non-existent (Yenzoos are ok, but Cybran and non-naval UEF really have nothing).
Ideally, if a UEF player does nothing but spam Mastadons and Tigersharks, a Cybran or Illuminate (and to a lesser extent, navally-expelled UEF player) should be able to research direct counters and spend less total resources on protecting his core base and nearby mexes, while using the resources saved on cheap counters to produce a means of striking directly at the owning player's base.
Poseidons are intentionally less counterable, yet they are more expensive, take longer to produce, and cannot bombard over obstacles like TMD ships can. The Poseidon isn't really imbalanced, other than the fact that Tigersharks still negate a proper naval response to them, which is still a problem.|||Cybrans have the best gunship, the Renegade. A good number of upgraded Renegade with RoF and shields can rape navy.
If you went all land, however, then I give you my condolences.|||Renegades are gunships not geminis. At the moment renegades are not a good counter as they lose to wasps and can be kited by the mastodons across short distances. They also cost research so the uef player will be able to invest more mass into his ships than the cybran can put into gunships.|||Renegades, Phil, Renegades. How dare you imply that geminis can rape navy!
Also, Your assessment that renegades beat mastodons is false: Theyre so unmanouvrable that theyre effectively destroyed once they get in range.|||Nephylim|||The problem is that due to the massive radar range on the navy you can see them coming and start to retreat before they cut you off. Once the ships are moving they can be brought around in a wide circle to attack the gunships from the edge of their range. The renegades won't land a hit.|||Biggest problem with ships is speed.
Tried take out a group of Executioners with a blob of gunships.
Couldn't get and stay in range. I remember when gunships were pure overpowered .. now they just don't seem to cut it in the big multiplay matches.
There is no differential point between "i\ll build a few gunships' to 'I'll get me some ac1000"
They're fast than land units - which again creates somewhat of a problem with say Yenzoos.
There is an early game point where Yenzoo's overpower navy.
Yenzoo's always beat cruisers.
There is a point where kiting + range upgrades make it almost fair if you have teleport.
Then there is a point where battleships just own the blob before it even reaches them.
Why exactly it's so easy to build floating experimentals or in the cybran case land-walking experimentals I'm not sure. The fatboy doesn't look as good compared to the jump-jetting land-walking executioner
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