Before you disagree, please note all points in the proposed statement.
Thanks!|||Depends on the size of the map. Etched Desert? 100% of the time. Finns? The non-UEF player is on better footing because UEF mobile AA/AA towers suck.|||FunkOff|||vax2007|||He means no AA structures.
Pure air? Yes, UEF will win. But like Funk said, their mobile AA and AA structures suck, so if the player doesn't have a significant amount of Interceptors = GG.|||In team games, it's actually a lot better balance. Building even a few bombers to help out your allies costs you huge in the air-vs-air game, compared to other faction who's fighters can aid allies in the ground war at no extra cost.|||You don't think Aeon can rush flares fast enough to maybe get an advantage? Or snipe the air factories, since they get f/bs instead of just interceptors? Heck even just mex sniping could give the appropriate eco advantage.
I realize UEF build cost/speed, and eventually megafortress, is hard to beat. But if an Aeon player did his stuff early enough, before those got a chance to kick in fully... what do you all think?|||BUFF MOBILE AA RANGE FTW!!|||How can anyone disagree with this? Aeon will never beat uef at a air to air fight...
Here are figures. Remember cybran only get 3 facs with 9 mass.
Build Orders
AEON Air Build Order 4 FACS =
5 Min Fighters = 15
10 Min Fighters = 60
15 Min Fighters = 105
20 Min Fighters = 160
CYBRAN Air Build 3 FACS =
5 Min Fighters = 15
10 Min Fighters = 55
15 Min Fighters = 100
20 Min Fighters = 145
UEF Air Build Order 4 FACS =
5 Min Fighters = 20
10 Min Fighters = 85
15 Min Fighters = 150
20 Min Fighters = 226
Air Fight Stats After 10 Minutes Of Building
UEF v AEON
4 FACS V 4 FACS
UEF = 1000 * 85 = 85000
AEON = 1100 * 60 = 66000
UEF = (0.1*(825*85))
UEF = 85000 + 7012.5 = 92012.5 + (25 * 100) * 8 = 112012.5
AEON = 66000
UEF Wins By 46 Units – 46012.5
3 FACS V 4 FACS
UEF = 1000 * 63.75 = 63750
AEON = 1100 * 60 = 66000
UEF = (0.1*(825*63.75))
UEF = 63750 + 5259.375 = 69009.375 + (3.7 * 100) * 10 = 72709.375
AEON = 66000
UEF Wins By 7 Units – 6709.375
UEF V CYBRAN
3 FACS V 3 FACS
UEF = 1000 * 63.75 = 63750
CYBRAN = 900 * 55 = 49500
CYBRAN = (0.05*(900*55))
UEF = 63750 + (8.75 * 100) * 8 = 70750
CYBRAN = 49500 + 2475 = 51975
UEF Wins By 19 Units – 18775
2 FACS V 3 FACS
UEF = 1000 * 42.5 = 42500
CYBRAN = 900 * 55 = 49500
CYBRAN = (0.05*(900*55))
UEF = 42500
CYBRAN = 2475 + 49500 = 51975 + (12.5 * 100) * 8 = 61975
CYBRAN Wins By 19 Units – 19475
AEON V CYBRAN
4 FACS V 3 FACS
AEON = 1100 * 60 = 66000
CYBRAN = 900 * 55 = 49500
CYBRAN = (0.15*(900*55))
AEON = 66000 + (5 * 100) * 8 = 70000
CYBRAN = 49500 + 7425 = 56925
AEON Wins By 13 Units – 13075
3 FACS V 3 FACS
AEON = 1100 * 45 = 49500
CYBRAN = 900 * 55 = 49500
CYBRAN = (0.15*(900*55))
AEON = 49500
CYBRAN = 49500 + 7425 = 56925 + (10 * 100) * 9 = 65925
CYBRAN Wins By 16 Units – 16425
For everyone thats lazy:
Uef spams alot more units.
UEF beats aeon with 1 less factory making bombers which basically means 1/4 of their overall units is bombers. (Seems fair tbh but i would like aeon to have abit more ground aa)
UEF beats cybran with 1 1/2 less factories but its fair because cybran gets adaptors + alot of other stuff.
So overall I think after looking at this the air stats are actually fair however i would like aeon to have more aa (not like cybran's adaptors ofc) because 30 (rounded up because im too tired to do maths) bombers for uef is alot.
However if u find ur going against a uef air guy do not go air if u are cybran or aeon, it is a suicide move. Instead try and find a tactic which will stop his air from dominating so you can get to his base because once u attack his base hes defenceless unlike ground which acts a block. Just need to find out how to keep the uef air away tho ^^|||[quote="DaemonicKnight]stuff.[/quote]
Let us not forget that while only a quarter of UFE's air force is bombers 100% of aeon's is.|||Honestly I do not like how the faction dominates this way because even though they cant do much damage after they have dominated the air (except the 30 units), I do find it boring to play the same faction on a 4v4 just because the other air guy goes UEF. I would prefer playing as different factions so I could add some spice ^^. Whether this being that all factions cant have f/b or all factions can only have f/b.|||thats what skill is for, if you beat him in the air, you have all these free bombers all of a sudden, and you can com snipe ore do whatever you like. if you win with uef, oh, i need some bombers, youswitch, and then he can start to outspam you if you do anything that will do sirious damage.|||I'm not disagreeing with the huge list of stats posted by Daemonic Knight -- it speaks for itself. Rather, I'll sum it up crudely:
1). UEF can devote their resources to either AA or AG for cheaper than the Cybran or the Illuminate factions (which are forced to do both), thereby dominating the AA game with air units
2). Though getting an adequate air force out there is difficult for Cybran and Aeon, they're paying for both fighters and bombers simultaneously. Though this can cost them the air war, this can also provide them unpredictable benefits in the event that they have the opportunity to attack ground targets.
The problem here really lies with unit statistics.
Currently:
Wasp AA DPS: 100
Gemini AA DPS: 100
Weedooboth AA DPS: 100
Wasp mass cost: 60
Gemini mass cost: 85
Weedooboth mass cost: 85
Wasp AA DPS-per-cost: 1.6667
Gemini AA DPS-per-cost: 1.17
Weedooboth AA DPS-per-cost: 1.17
There's your problem right there. The solution?
Buff Gemini and Weedooboth AA dps to 137, either right out of the gate, or via an AA upgrade early in the tree. This way, even though they're multi-role, they'll be doing the same DPS per cost as the Wasp. Though the Wasp still builds faster... it can't attack ground.
EDIT: I'mma also cast my vote with Nephylim -- ground based AA range needs a significant buff across the board.|||Modify your calculations to include the fact that wasps have slightly lower health than weebs and gemini. Still comes out way in UEF's favour.
And then the UEF get 15% cost and build time reductions, which the aeon and cybran cannot match.
And if a megafortress hits the field, it's all over.|||If you make FBs equal in dps/mass to wasps, how is the UEF supposed to do anything in air battles? Okay, wasps build faster. Big whoop. Just put down an extra factory and presto. Airforts? While you're trying to get one out of the gates, you'll loose the spamwar and get Combombed. Even if you win the airspamwar as UEF (which won't be by a big margin), the enemy will be able to occupy you with spamming fighters, so you won't be able to capitalize on that.
The only thing that the UEF will have going in air spam matches is the build cost/time upgrades on air. But that cancels out against holoflares (and that's an optimistic estimation for UEF). In fact, I'd bet that Aeon would easilly win the spamwar when they reach flares with the wasp nerf you proposed. Against Cybran air, UEF might still stand a chance, but Cybran air is a topic of its own.
*edit* Now I'm not arguing that it's reasonable that the UEF can currently conquer the air so easily. It's not. But nerfing the Wasp down to FB effectiveness is obviously not the answer.|||Manta|||Flares take way too long to research, the air war is already lost by then in 1 v 1.
If it were cheaper (like, swapped with shielding) but say.... only effective against air to air, then we'd have an air war that's less binary based on certain research landmarks.|||Last Stand|||Manta|||Also, I rather agree that teleporting Crahdow is strong, I use it to great effectiveness. After all, the best answer to a gunship rush is to attack them as they approach, rather when they're already in range. Tele-kiting gunships and bombing runs also helps immensely. With bombers you teleport backwards after they release their bombs, meannig they have to fly even further before they turn around to make another pass, all the while you're blowing holes in them.
Now if only teleporting was easier to get at...|||Did anyone ever confirm whether or not the ROF upgrade applies to gemini AA? I remember it being something people stated as fact, but never heard any support for. Or I forgot.|||spuddyt|||Nephylim|||Honestly the air war is ballanced imo (but i change my mind alot ^^). However I do not like how you can only do one tactic: be uef, spam wasps, race to shields, win. This is boring to me and doesnt really add diversity unlike the land v land game which has loads of possibilities.|||Manta
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