This is a subject that keeps coming up, but in threads that wern't really there for them, therefore I've decided to tidy all of that into a nice neat package here so we can discuss it properly. With without further ado here's the breakdown of the current state of play with regards to naval battles, arguably the least balanced aspect of the game currently.
In the blue corner: The UEF
Mastadon: For an early game unit, this thing boasts some amazing firepower for its cost. Notably its amazing AA which is more cost effective than the standalone AA tower, and mobile too! Also posses the longest range mobile tactical missiles in the game, allowing it to severely damage bases from outside any land based defense, and can easily shoot down air units trying to defend said base. It also has a rasonable deck cannon, which when upgraded isn't too shabby either. It's main weakness is close range direct fire weapons, such as torpedoes or tank weapons, as its armour is weak. But you get a lot of bang for your buck. Has an anti-missile system for some reason. Also has a big radar system that then gets TRIPLED with an upgrade, making it far better than stationary radar systems.
Tigershark:
Low armour, but as cheap as naval units go, the tigershark is invulnerable to attack except through torpedoes, restricting its foes to (almost) enemies that the tigershark can also fire upon. It can cost effectively beat any naval force and its only hard counters are torpedo bombing Eagle Eyes, Wilfindja and Torpedo-equipped Yenzoo tanks. When naval superiority is won, they can be surfaced for a bit of land-based firepower.
Posiedon
Big health, Big range, Big guns, half respectable AA and quick build time for something that encroaches upon experimentals for cost and ability. Effective at bombarding bases, other naval units and Aeon Tank formations, it's only true vulnerability lies with the tigershark, which is a UEF unit of its own. Also has an anti-missile system for some reason. Not sure how somethnig this big can be so fast.
Altantis II
Only costs slightly more than a posiiedon, but much longer to build for what is essentially a ship to ship killer that happens to make aircraft. Big health and big damage make it good in a naval battle, particularly as it can sumerge to fight foes that can't fire into the water. Its role as a mobile factory is rather overshadowed however.
Super Triton
Lots and lots of splashy guns and a big extrasplashy gun on top (All do the same damage for some reason). Shame they can't all fire on the same target though. Outranged by the posiedon and thus there's very little reason to ever build this. Because it doesn't fill a need that the UEF has. As with most UEF ships, it is most vulnerable to the Tigershark.
Eagle Eye
Brief mention for its role in sub hunting and killing wayward ships.
Broadsword
See above, only without subhunting.
In the Red corner: Cybrans
Salem
The cybrans are the masters of multi-function ships, yet somehow this comes out as multifunctional but not nearly as cost effective as the mastadon for what it does (although they have different roles) Its AA has nothing on the Mastadon's. Unnervingly fast, letting it kite Aeon tanks with ease until they teleport. In theory this lets them run from submarines but since this is the only method the Cybrans even have to attack submarines, it's a losing tactic, since you have to face them at some point and this is a strictly mass inefficent battle. Does do a good job against mastadons however. Can't fire directly backwards. Walks on land, but that helps little in sea battles (Unless you gave it the ability to launch torpedoes from the land to the sea).
Executioner
Better AA than the Posiedon and equipped with torpedoes, but that's all it has on the Posiedon, which gets doubled firepower, bigger splash and longer range. So it strictly loses to them. If you get them onto land, they're great at assisting ground assaults. But that doesn't win you the naval battle first. Its speed however makes it a de-facto counter to Aeon land units on water. Quick to build for something so expensive.
Command
Slightly more efficient air factory, but its short range and lack of torpedoes or AA make it very poor in a naval battle. Having the RP to unlock this and also upgrade aircraft to make it worthwhile is somewhat unreasonable too.
Kraken
Submerges, but still strictly loses to tigersharks of equal mass, and you'll have trouble getting them near a navy and lasting long enough to surface, deploy tentacles and fire. Has some uses as a naval equivalent of an Airnomo, but suffers from the same problems too.
Renegade
Fully upgraded these things are effective against navies due to their good toughness and firepower, particular aeon tanks, not so much against anything involving Mastadons though, due to their great AA.
Gemini
I wish I could label these as somehow useful in Naval battles, I cannot.
And finally, in the Green corner: The Illumiante
Yenzoo
The workhorse of the aeon naval force. Good direct fire DPS, cheap to produce (you can make six for a single salem's cost) and immune to torpedoes. Despite being so small and mavouverable, they are much slower than other ships and NEED teleportation to fight. Torpedo tubes dramatically increase their potential with 33% more overall DPS, frontloaded damage, longer range and underwater targeting. Has no answer to battleships however, as the teleport range simply is not long enough. Very effective before battleships turn up though.
Bodaboom
Essential unit to give lastability in the face of splashy bombardment, the extra health and regen work very well with shields too.
Weedoboth
Possibly the most effective unit against mastadons due to being able to survive their bombing runs with flares and doing big damage to the struck ships with scorch bombs. Effective against their own kind too.
Vulthoo
Good against Battleship spam due to their flares keeping them alive whislt they do the damage. not so good if wasps make their appearance, which they often do.
Wilfindja
De-facto Sub killer and rather effective against small numbers of mastadons. useful in team games because of its ability to kill submarines (Which a Cybran ally would really appreciate). But really, this thing just isn't tough enough to last long enough against the big boys. It's fast compared to other land units, but not compared to other ships and thus will get kited and easily destroyed.
Pullnsmash
Not a naval unit per se, but worthy of mention due to its ability to deny areas of shore to any non-experimental naval unit, even subs. Since no commander wants to see 200+ mass destroyed every 2 seconds they'll avoid the things or pummel it with mastadons. A strange thing to see in naval battles nonetheless, due to its tech tree placement.
Discuss, analyse, flame, rant, suggest.|||You forgot urchinows for Illuminate. They work pretty damn well against bships on small maps like Markon Bridge.|||They do? I thought they were too comically slow to even approach battleships in one piece.|||Manta|||Also, am I the only one who thinks that salems and executioners moving almost as fast as gunships is slightly odd?|||Almost every single naval unit is horiffically broken in some way. Illuminate tanks and willys, and ALL UEF AND CYBRAN SHIPS. And geminis and weedoboths.
Most important flaws:
Ships too fast
Bships WAY too fast
Tanks have too low range but too high damage for a naval fight > manifests in uselessness without teleport but RAPE with teleport
ALL naval experimentals broken
Tanks can dodge => unable to kill without Bships
Bships too good vs tanks due to range and AoE
Balance issues:
Obviously salems vs tigersharks
UEF stacked cannons
Too strong UEF air
Too weak lategame cybran naval AA|||Yeah, But the units we currently have should make a perfectly good counterunit cycle if they were re-arranged.
Currently, the counter To UEF and Cybran naval is the tigershark. The counter to the Tigershark is the eagle eye bomber or two late aeon techs (torpedoes and wilfindja) which are in turn best countered with UEF mastadons and Posiedons. The cybrans have nothing here that isn't done better by someone else.
The counter to teleporting Aeon tanks is battleships, the Aeon have nothing that counters battleships effectively because they're too fast and have too much range.
The cybrans get another shaft when you realise that even their magnetron and structure detone (both very good against Aeon floating and teleporting tanks) is ineffective against UEF ships.
The Mastadon is also way too effective at everything it does. Its AA OR its TML is more than worth the total cost of the mastadon, let alone both in the same package.|||Manta|||-The-Baron-|||-The-Baron-|||My point is with the mastadon is that you get your money's worth if you only ever use it for one of its abilities. If you use it as an AA ship, you get more DPS than an AA tower. If you use it as a mobile TMl, you get much more use out of it than aeon TML (Since it can move where a TML cannot), for cheaper too. Heck, I'd almost pay 244 mass for a stationary radar system that good and that tough.
Just too much in one boat. Especially one that doesn't even require unlocking.|||The simplest fix for the issue with Aeon vs ships is to make ships substantially slower (Every naval unit except the tigershark literally move at the same speed as gunships.), decrease their range, and then readjust their DPS/health/mass cost ratio so that they're individually weaker and cheaper but with better cumulative health for their cost. Perhaps even increase muzzle-velocity to reduce the impact of dodging.
Battleships, on the other hand, need their role completely re-thought. ATM they're basically spammable naval exp's, and cover so many roles simultaneously that they invalidate any alternative unit. Even with UEF, battleships are so strong that you don't actually need to spam subs in order to dominate the seas once you have them. On top of that, they're the best option for shore bombardement available, and also counter aeon land thanks to their AoE. They literally cover every naval role possible except for subhunting and aa. Except no unit in supcom 2 accomplishes subhunting well (even wilfindja's lose to their mass cost in surfaced subs), and Bships do have aa, which is just strong enough in large numbers to greatly discourage fighterbombers, and if absolutely needed, UEF can toss in a few mastadons to rape everything flying.
Since battleships move as fast as gunships and fighterbombers take way too much attrition swooping over a fleet you don't really have to worry about non-exp air anywho.
Personally I think the UEF navy should be balanced to be weak in direct combat (tigershark as a low health raiding/surprise snipe unit, mastadon as a purely support cruiser and poseidon as a fragile and expensive long-range bombardement platform) and cybran ships just need to be given more distinct roles, while still remaining flexible enough to not require outside support (because if their aa isn't good enough, it's not like gemini's are going to protect them).|||*grabs pen, writes down inspiration for balance mod*
Z32|||Nephylim|||In my opinion, Bships should only be long range support. That would mean nerfing their speed, and possibly increasing build time. While increasing other ships muzzle velocity, keep Bship muzzle velocity the same. They would not be able to kite tanks, and die quickly without other ships for backup.
One solution for tank - ship balance im going to try now is making guns unable to fire at ships, and just go for torpedo changes to make that thing the main weapon.|||Nephylim|||A simple thing with battleships would be to swap their roles with the Super triton. Make the battleship the shorter range naval superiority weapon (With ranges that let them fight with command class and atlantis II) and let the Super Triton be the shore bombarder.
I also rather think the executioner needs to be more distinct from the posiedon somehow. They feel like Gemini and Weebs, pretty much the same, but one's clearly better later on.|||Manta|||But they're still big tough ships with long range artillery and reasonable AA on them. Which ultimately is what they spend 90% of their time doing.|||Bships in Neph's mod:
-Speed reduction from 5 to 4
-AOE reduction from 3 to 2.5
-Stack Gauss Cannon upgrade reduction by 50%
Only thing I would add right now:
I would like to see Bships with a build time around 75+ seconds.
Also, Mastadons should take 45+ seconds.|||Nephylim|||I suppose now the next thing to do would be to make the naval experimentals useful. Triton, Atlantis, Kraken and Wilfindja.|||Manta|||What was it you did to them to make them work? I'm keen to know.|||Atlantis could use a little love.
AOE 2 to be specific like the other ship cannons so that it can hit yenzoo.
Also all the Navy experimentals with torpedos should have a larger sonar. Upgraded tigersharks have 120 and mastadons have 200.
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