Now, On with the topic. As AZ said, Servo's topic suggests an update is on its way. As most of you also know, Sorian had expressed his wish to look into further in the ai of supcom2. I dont know if the suggested update is focused mainly on exploit fixing, but this topic is for discussing AI, what you want for the AI, etc etc. This is all about AI.
I will start it off (mistake I did so many times before, not starting off my own topic
);My wish is to have an ai that is more competent and mainly, fun at 1v1. 5 main Ideas.
1 - I want the ai to have good build orders. This is something sorian wanted to look in. A good start for an AI will make it a harder 1v1 opponent.
2 - I want it to mass up blobs of units as a player would do. The ai sends out little waves of 7 or so units to either scout out, leave idle, or just to their destruction to the enemy base. If it wants to scout, I want it to scout with 1 unit, not a wave of money losing units.
2.1 - Attack with all units. I dont want the ai to leave units behind when it attacks, I want it to commit to an attack and have the intent to destroy the enemy base with all its units. Dont be shy on suprise attacks in strange angles!
2.2 - Attack key structures. Maybe it does that already, theres too much units on screen to see it. I would like the ai to rip appart my Mexes and RS. I know it rips appart radars pretty well though.
3 - focus on main base and units. We all know how the AI likes to build forward outposts with a couple of PD, 1 or 2 AA and a radar. That leaves it behind the human player in terms of economy. Make it focus on its base and units before it expands.
3.1 - one gantry at a time please! It will build multiple gantrys when only using one. Just use one if you need one, It will save the AI 400 mass and a lot of energy
4 - Micro! I would like the ai to use its units a bit better, keep the artillery behind, mobile shields at front, and not send its FatboyII in the middle of my blob.
5 - this one is just personnal wish. Have the AI send a message when it attacks or retreats. I beleive the Sorian AI tells you "sending units to blah blah whats-his-face".
It would be nice to have that for SupCom2 AI, so a human player can synchronise attacks with the ai partner.
5.1 - When a human player types "-attack" or "-retreat" or so, the ai partner attacks or retreats. For synchronised attacks.
As you noticed, the number 5 is for 2v2 + with the AI, whereas the numbers 1, 2, 3 and 4 are for 1v1 against the ai. This would make for a tougher, and mostly A more fun to play against AI in 1v1.
this topic is all about discussing this! Again, this is not meant as spam, it is meant as not derailing two other topics. I know red and blue are hard for the eyes right next to each other, sorry for any headache
!|||I agree with all of these ideas. I especially recommend specific build orders for the AI with the aim of attempting a specific strategy such as rushing a minor. Individual unit micro that keeps each unit in optimal range and position would make even the normal AI a solid challenge.
Perhaps design a formula for the AI so it can optimise its economy. Code that essentially makes the AI think: "I need X at Y minutes, therefore I must build Z mexes to achieve that." It should build exactly the right number of mexes and pgens to maximise the number of units it has on the field at the time it plans to attack while still keeping enough units on the field to fend off any enemy attacks up to that point.|||Yes, that would be very good. I play 1v1 against the starcraft 2 AI, but play 2v2 or more against supcom2 AI. in 1v1, the Supcom2 AI seems pretty repetitive, just sending waves of units.|||I agree that there are not so much discussion about the AI even if like 95% of all supcom2 players are playing skirmishes most of the time.
I think one of the "problems" are the map markers. Especially when you are playing against less AI (for example 1) on a map that is suppose to be used with many (for example open palms). Playing against 2 Ai on 100% economic boost is more fun and less repetitive than playing against 1 AI on 200% bonus.
Some kind of "dynamic map marker" system based on the amount of players would make this supreme AI even better.
Another thing is the threat level the Ai is using to count the "weight" in the decisions (as far as I understand it). Those figures do not really correspond to what a decent multiplayer player takes in account when the decisions are taken. The radars is a good example but I think when the AI:air decides that a PD is a bigger threat than a AA or an AI:land decides that a AA is a bigger threat than a PD is a bigger problem -And an easy way to exploit the AI.
Take a look on my "Map specific AI" on viewtopic.php?f=30&t=49951 if you havent done it before. :)|||Hi, just noting my interest in seeing AI improvements as well, and agreement with the topic poster's list of ideas. Thanks.|||As someone who knows RTS AI... The supcom2 AI is great as it is.
Sorian has given us a great stock AI with amazing tweak options. While I could tweak it, I dont need to. Go play with the built in options and you will see that it can be set for all levels of play.
And if you want to improve it go do it yourself (refer to Machater's supcom2 AI as reference).|||While I mostly agree, it does have problems with keeping its units alive, and does need a better sense of when to retreat. I'm not sure that can be changed from within what little of the AI is exposed to lua, however.|||The biggest problem I find, is that it doesent attack with massed units. while a human player and an AI player have the same number of units, the AI will only send out half of those units. Wich is, frankly, stupid.
How much did sorian's ai in FA cheat? IIRC, when I would play FA, it would forward its acu from early to mid-game, but I recall it just sending units almost one at a time in a chain of death. Supcom 2 does the same, but with half-blobs of units.|||duncane|||That has nothing to do with the moddability of the AI. You're trying to open compiled lua, which doesn't work - you have to open the uncompiled lua.
The issue is that the skirmish AI doesn't use much of the lua framework created for the AI, and that is only used by the campaign AI. For example, there is no way to alter the AI's understanding of the economy to allow it to use a drain economy, because that is handled entirely by the engine for the skirmish AI.|||duncane|||Mithy|||redmoth|||fransotto|||Here are some pics on n2.1 that I talked about. the ai does not mass up units when attacking. I have 2 pics at different times in the game (with revamp and eco mod, doesent affect how the ai attacks) look at how it just sends waves of small numbers of units to me.
This is "AI breaking". Seriously. An ai will not pickoff a win when sending its units in waves like that.
Here are the pics. Ai is green, I am blue. look at how it sends its units to my blob in this 1v1 situation.
help Sorian :) If you have the occasion of working on the AI, please make it even more amazing than it is already
|||Uh, whenever I play the AI, it sends much, much larger groups than that mid-game. Even early game, a hard or almost-hard AI will usually send 15-20 units by the time I've got about 10-12 ready, and the groups get larger as the game goes on, up to 40-60.Like I said before, it would benefit a lot from caring more about the survival of these groups, while slowly adding to them like a human player does, but sending groups of 5-10 units at a time is definitely not a problem that the stock AI has.
It's silly to say that revamp and the eco mod won't affect that - of course they will. Changing the AI's economy and available units and platoon compositions has a significant effect on the AI's behavior. Unfortunately, there isn't much that can be done to compensate for this, as the skirmish AI's economy handling seems to be entirely hardcoded.|||Maybe a couple more:
Don't use Factory addons until a requirement is met for their use. No TML unless there's an enemy building in range. No Shield generator unless it will soon be under attack (These things are expensive). No AA gun without an air threat, No Intel structure when it would only reveal a small amount of unknown ground, no torpedo tube when against purely the Aeon.
Some kind of analysis of threats from other opponents. Eg, as mentioned earlier, no torpedo units against Aeon enemies.
Much less emphasis on static defences. Generally the AI should only place them inside factory shields, and only on the extremes of a base. Every other time the AI should just make more tanks or bots as defense, resorting to PD when he feels outnumbered. As it is, they build them everywhere as their base sprawls and throws away far too much in the way of resources.
Self preservation for Engineers. Too many times I've seen them send engies to get to mass deposits on the other side of my tanks or PD, only to send more and more engineers later. Some kind of risk reward for building needs to factor in proximity to enemy and allied forces.|||Mithy|||Mithy|||You ignored what I said - revamp and the eco mod DO affect the AI, by changing its unit and resource availability respectively. The eco mod in particular doesn't really work with the AI at all, because there's no way to tell the AI that it can start building something that it doesn't have the resources for. They may not be intended to tweak or rebalance the AI, but they definitely have an effect on it, because they change core gameplay and/or add a lot of unit types (including structures).
And normal AI is always going to be a pushover once you've played a bunch of games. Hard can be a bit cheesy at times, but something like a 30/50 custom AI isn't too bad, and makes the AI build and thus dispatch many more units. I've seen groups of up to 80-90 from a hard or near-hard custom AI, which is at least a moderate challenge if you're not ready for it. You can usually still double or triple the effectiveness of your units through micromanagement though, and a standard procedural RTS AI can never match that.|||Quote:|||AngryMacrophage|||What I'm trying to say is, if the ai would not send waves, you wouldn't need a 30/50 ai to have a challenge.|||When I've played the AI, it's almost always sent nearly all of its units at once. This is not necessarily the case on a large map where it may have multiple factory clusters separated by some distance; in that case, it still sends platoons containing the majority of units that it has at each expansion.
I've seen a few games that are exceptions to this, but they're rare. It's usually much dumber with naval units than with land and air, but even then it'll usually mass a whole bunch of mastodons + tigersharks before moving them out.|||I think were talking about different subjects. Platoon size is something I talk about in 2.1, In the first post. By massing units, what I mean is keep its units idle or close to base untill it commits to an attack. Usually, what I get by playing AI, is it sends the first 7 or 8 units it produces to launch an attack. The 7-8 units are killed easily because when they get to the enemy (human player) base, the player has around 20 units.
The AI then sends another platton out, wich is 20-22 units. these are easily countered by the player, who now has 30 units.
So long and so forth, the ai keeps sending these waves, untill the human player has a blob of 150 units, and the ai only has half of that. The player then launches an attack for the win.
If the AI were to keep those initial waves (7-8 units, then 20-22 units, then 30-32 units, etc etc), It will have massed up the "same" number of units as the player, and should be able to make a pretty successful attack.
I find the AI wastes too much money on sending small waves of units to attack a player.
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